Alice: Welcome back to this week’s installment of the Oathbringer reread, wherein we launch into Part 2: New Beginnings Sing. What are these new beginnings? Well, let’s find out; the next few months will apparently focus on Shallan, Jasnah, Dalinar, and Bridge Four.
Lyn: YAY BRIDGE FOUR! ::salute::
A: This week, we’re only dealing with those first two, as they come to grips with inevitable changes resulting from Jasnah’s return.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week includes minor Cosmere effects as we speculate briefly on the author of the first set of epigraphs. There are definitely references to later in the book, so if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.5.3 (the day after chapter 32)
Shallan makes her way to the room where she scared off the Midnight Mother, looking for Jasnah. She finds her and the two have a brief conversation about why Jasnah didn’t contact anyone to let them know she was still alive.
The Singing Storm
Title: A Lecture
This was how their reunion went? A lecture? Fitting.
A: I’ll admit I snickered at this line. The comment accompanying this suggestion was about an initial disappointment at not being shown a tearful or excited reunion—and then realizing that a lecture was far more appropriate to this particular relationship.
Heralds
All four places are occupied by Vedel, representing the essence Lucentia (Light), and the attributes Loving and Healing. She is patron of the Order of Edgedancers.
A: This seems an odd choice of Herald for the chapter, since it centers around a Lightweaver and an Elsecaller. There’s no visible healing taking place, either physical or mental. The other connections I can try to make involve esoterica like diamond (the order’s gemstone); quartz, glass, and crystal (soulcasting properties); and the eyes (body focus). I’d really love to have Isaac tell us what he was thinking here, but the best I can do is guess that it either has something to do with both women’s perturbed state of mind (which need healing?) or with the gemstone pillar in some way.
L: My spheres are on the pillar.
Icon
Pattern
Epigraph
Dearest Cephandrius, I received your communication, of course.
A: Oh, this is going to be fun. The letters are always fascinating, and they drive so much speculation. This one is a letter to Hoid; Cephandrius is one of the names he’s used elsewhere, and WoB is that it’s the closest we’ve seen to his original name. In that WoB, it’s also noted that he’s been called Topaz. I think it’s worth saying that the word/name Cephas is an Aramaic one, meaning “rock”—and I’m reasonably sure that’s not coincidence.
L: Ah, but who is the letter from? Do we find out over the course of this book? I admit this is my first reread since the beta, and we didn’t have these in the beta version…
A: ::scurries off to look it up:: Oh, yeah, of course, it’s from… We don’t know! It’s clearly from a Shard who is the only one on its planet. Also, one whose planet Hoid has visited—but we have to assume that’s all of them, even if we haven’t seen them. If it’s a Shard we know about already, we can eliminate every one but Edgli (Endowment from Warbreaker); if it’s not her, then it’s one of the six Shards we haven’t learned about yet.
L: What rules out Harmony (Scadrial)? Do the timelines not match up or something?
A: The epigraphs for Part 2 are actually three different letters, and the third one is pretty clearly from Harmony. Fwiw, the second is from Bavadin, Vessel of the Shard Autonomy, but we’ll talk about that more in a couple of months or so when we reach the second letter.
Here’s how it shakes out: It can’t be from any of the splintered Shards (Devotion, Dominion, Ambition, and Honor), so that takes out four. It’s not likely to be from Cultivation or Odium, since they’re right here; that makes six. Ruin and Preservation are combined to Harmony, who like Bavadin is ruled out because of the other two letters, removing another three of the original sixteen for a total of nine. That leaves Edgli, or one of the six still-hidden Shards. This could be Brandon’s way of introducing a new one, which would be cool because he’s spilled nothing about them.
I’m going with Edgli, though.
Stories & Songs
Lately she’d only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.
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L: I’m left wondering if this was just an effect of the Midnight Mother’s influence on her, or if it was indicative of a deeper issue within her fracturing psyche. I’m not sure if we see her drawing again anytime soon…
A: Not ones that we get to see. Except for the picture of Urithiru below, which opens Part 2, we don’t see her drawings again until she’s in Kholinar. (I’m assuming that the Urithiru drawing is one she does during this chapter, or close to it; until she booted the Midnight Mother, she wasn’t able to draw the tower at all.) There are a few times coming up where she’s caught doing sketches in meetings, though, so apparently she returns to her normal forms of drawing after this.
In fact… the oppressive feelings she’d felt since they’d arrived at the tower seemed to have evaporated. No more fear, no more formless sense of wrongness. The thing she’d chased away had been its cause.
A: My immediate question about this was whether that sense of wrongness in the whole tower which she’d felt earlier was a matter of proximity, just because Re-Shephir was hanging out in the cellars? Or was it because Re-Shephir was wrapped around that pillar and somehow linked into the fabrialesque infrastructure of the tower?
L: Oh, that’s a good theory. If that pillar does somehow power the tower (heh rhymes), then it would make sense that the corruption of the Unmade seeping into it would resonate through the whole tower!
A: There are a lot of questions about this “wrongness” that are—and may always be—unanswered. How many people really felt it? We talked earlier about how Shallan and Renarin did, but Dalinar didn’t. Are there others who felt it? And if so, why some and not others?
L: Not to mention, is this corruption only present in certain Unmade, or in all of them? There are definitely effects on people who are close to Ashertmarn (the revelers in Kholinar), Nergaoul (the Thrill), and Moelach (the Death Rattles).
A: That… is a very good question. Moelach was apparently present in Kharbranth when Shallan was there, because of the death rattles, but she didn’t notice anything. Of course, her bond with Pattern was pretty dodgy at that point, too. On the other hand, when they reach Kholinar, Shallan does a sketch of the palace that Kaladin thinks is “twisted, with odd angles and distorted walls.” Sound familiar? So… maybe… I have no idea where I’m going with this. Does Shallan see the effect of certain Unmade and not others, or do they just not all have that effect?
L: Well, we don’t know where the Midnight Mother wound up. Maybe she was in Kholinar too and hence creating the same effect on Shallan…
A: Oooh. That would be sort of scary. I was assuming it was either Ashertmarn or Sja-Anat, but I have to admit that we really don’t know how many of them had gathered there.
L: This also makes me wonder how friendly they all are with one another. Would the Midnight Mother have run off to the others to feel more safety in numbers? Do they in-fight, like the Forsaken?
A: I have so many questions! And I’m pretty sure Brandon has no intention of answering them any time soon.
L: SO MANY. ALL the questions!
The crystal pillar at the center really was something incredible. It wasn’t a single gemstone, but a myriad of them fused together: emerald, ruby, topaz, sapphire… All ten varieties seemed to have been melted into a single thick pillar, twenty feet tall.
L: I keep thinking about how much heat it would take to MELT gemstones into one another like that. Is it even possible, scientifically speaking? I’m sure that magic was involved somehow (Stonewards, perhaps?), but we all know how closely Sanderson ties his magic to real science….
A: Yeah, that’s a good point. Using heat to melt them together sounds problematic at best. It’s possible that the Stonewards used Cohesion or Tension (I can never keep those two straight) to alter the molecular structure, but it might be something the Sibling made instead. If the Sibling is indeed the spren of stone, they could probably do this! I keep vacillating between the theory that the Stonewards formed Urithiru, and the theory that the Sibling “grew it” for the Knights Radiant.
L: Other than the science, I like the idea that this pillar is symbolic of all ten of the orders being bound together into a thing of beauty.
A: YES.
“My mother,” Jasnah said, hand still on the pillar, not looking toward Shallan, “thinks this must be some kind of incredibly intricate fabrial.”
A: Personally, I think she’s right… sort of. I guess it’s common speculation now, but I’m almost positive this is either the “power plant” or the control center for the entire tower infrastructure. I’m also confident that the Sibling will need to wake up in order for it to work, and somewhat less confident that it will require someone to bond with them. (I mean, I’d really love to see Navani or Rushu bond with the Sibling, but I also think it would be sort of cool if they returned just to be with the Knights Radiant without necessarily forming a bond.)
L: Why are you so sure that the Sibling needs to be involved? Maybe it’s just that one of each of the orders of Knights Radiant needs to be present.
A: Well, that would certainly make it easier! (I think. Some of the spren don’t seem very cooperative about reviving all the orders, do they?) I have no valid support for my theory, to be frank. It just seems that the Sibling is tied closely to Urithiru, so I make assumptions within that framework. It’s just faintly possible (!) that I’m obsessed with the Sibling, since Brandon won’t tell me anything about it.
“I had to find a transfer point—a place where Shadesmar and our realm touch—which is far, far more difficult than one might assume.”
L: Just pointing this out as it’s going to become awfully important come Part 4.
Relationships & Romances
“That Windrunner. What do you think of him, Shallan? I find him much as I imagined his order, but I have only met him once.”
L: Yes, Shallan. What do you think of that Windrunner? Eh? Eh?
A: Look at this week’s artwork for a tiny hint….
Shallan hesitated in the doorway, feeling much as she had upon seeing Jasnah for the first time in Kharbranth. Insecure, overwhelmed, and—if she was honest—incredibly envious.
A: Jasnah’s return creates a lot of conflict for Shallan. Last time we saw Shallan, she was thinking about how she kind of almost felt like an adult – and there was a fair amount of discussion about the ways in which her reflections showed her immaturity. I think we missed noting that she wasn’t really an adult questioning her ability to act like an adult; she was a teenager feeling like she was all grown up and mature now. All of a sudden, in this chapter, she’s being forcibly returned to the position of “Jasnah’s young ward,” and I think a lot of the reason for her resentment is that she had convinced herself of her own maturity. Of course, there are ways where her resentment is reasonable; she has done some pretty amazing things on her own, and she really ought not to be treated patronizingly.
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At the same time, I can relate to Jasnah’s position. Being told that your ward has done some pretty amazing things – which she acknowledges – is very different than seeing them happen and seeing her growth. In the meta-story, it was needful for Jasnah to be out of the picture in order for Shallan to be in a position to do All The Things; in the character, though, it has to be hard for Jasnah to change her understanding of Shallan all in a few minutes. And honestly, Shallan is acting like a sulky teenager, which doesn’t give Jasnah much reason to treat her as not-a-child.
“I feel lost…” Jasnah said. … “For years I was at the very forefront of all this. One short stumble, and I find myself scrambling to stay afloat. These visions that my uncle is having … the refounding of the Radiants in my absence … It has all come so quickly. After years of struggling in the shadows, everything coming to light—and despite my years of study—I understand so very little.”
A: This, naturally, enhances my sympathy. How awful would it be for Jasnah, the one who had been at the leading edge, who had progressed so far through her Ideals while keeping it secret from everyone, who gave her life to researching all of this—and now it seems that everyone is ahead of her. They aren’t, of course; she will show soon enough that her years of practice give her an enormous edge, but these first days must be overwhelming.
Storms. She was perfect. A curvaceous figure, tan Alethi skin, light violet eyes, and not a hint of aberrant color to her jet-black hair. Making Jasnah Kholin as beautiful as she was brilliant was one of the most unfair things the Almighty had ever done.
L: Some people read these types of thoughts as Shallan being bisexual, and Brandon did sort of confirm it in this WoB… kinda. As a bi woman, I absolutely love this.
A: Perspective makes so much difference in our assumptions, doesn’t it? I simply read it as Shallan being envious of Jasnah’s physical “perfections” as opposed to her own perceived shortcomings; she has frequently disparaged her own height, build, hair color, skin color, etc. (I am all too familiar with this kind of self-perception!) I think Brandon likes it when we see ourselves in his work, whether he did it intentionally or not.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“The Ghostbloods will almost certainly start targeting you, now that you’ve begun progressing toward your final Ideals.”
L: Okay so…. If their goal is to find info about the Desolations and parshendi, and they tried to assassinate Jasnah because she was a rival… why would they be coming after Shallan for progressing in Ideals? Maybe Jasnah is just mistaking the Ghostbloods’ motives for the Skybreakers’?
A: It’s possible that Jasnah doesn’t know what the Ghostbloods’ motives are. I’m know I don’t; they haven’t told us much so far. The only thing I’m reasonably sure of is that their motives reach beyond Roshar, and I’m not sure Jasnah was targeted just because she was a rival for information. There’s a whole lot of misinformation floating around; for example, Amaram assumed that the Ghostbloods were behind the Shardbearer who came for him, but we’re reasonably sure that the Shardblade he was carrying belonged to the Skybreakers. So… more questions and uncertainties.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
All she’d done was grope an eldritch spren.
L: ::snicker::
Weighty Words
“Of course. An Elsecaller, Brightness. A thing you never explained; a word which no one but the most dedicated scholar of the esoteric would recognize.”
“All Radiants have an attachment to Shadesmar,” Jasnah said. “Our spren originate there, and our bond ties us to them. But my order has special control over moving between realms. I was able to shift into Shadesmar to escape my would-be assassin.”
A: This is a really good reminder that on the whole, we know a LOT more about the Knight Radiant orders than most people in-world. Jasnah knows quite a bit, and the Heralds would know more if they weren’t insane. The spren know a lot, but they mostly aren’t telling. That said, this was a delicious little tidbit.
I don’t know how canonical it’s intended to be, but I think this is worth reading for a little more idea of what Elsecallers can and can’t do.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“You capture a spren,” Jasnah said, “and imprison it inside a gemstone crafted for the purpose. Artifabrians have found that the specific stimuli will provoke certain responses in the spren.”
A: Shallan’s reaction to this is much the same as my original reaction to realizing how fabrials work.
L: Same.
A: I’m sure much of that was driven by knowing Syl and other higher, sapient spren, because trapping those spren seems nothing less than slavery. It’s a little hard to think of Shardblades in quite the same way, but it’s not really that much different.
L: The “dead” Shardblades for sure.
A: This forces us to face the question: is it slavery to entrap and manipulate a spren that isn’t at all self-aware, which in the normal course of events would simply be drawn to an event or emotion the way ants are drawn to crumbs? Assuming you could obtain something useful from it, would it be slavery to entrap an ant and get it to do a certain thing by providing it with a grain of sugar? Which is more accurate: Jasnah’s comparison of hitching a chull to a wagon—and Shallan’s extension to locking the chull in a box forever—or my comparison of an ant? Not that anyone here can answer that question, because we really don’t know how self-aware some of these spren are—nor chulls, for that matter!
L: They do seem more like animals—not sapient, that is—so I can follow Jasnah’s explanation. But trapping them inside of gems? Sounds like sticking pokemon into pokeballs to me (which always struck me as a little… unpleasant).
Appealing/Arresting/Appraising/Absorbing Artwork
L: I have verification from the artist that the figure in the corner here is meant to be Kaladin. I may or may not have rebuked him for changing the uniform design, since now I have to make another one to match this drawing… -_-
A: Bummer on the uniform design… but I find it moderately hilarious that she’s got this perfect drawing of Urithiru, with all the drafting conventions observed… and then a sketch of Kaladin up in the corner just because.
Quality Quotations
Jasnah didn’t want to merely prove her points. She wanted to drive them right into your skull, with a flourish and a pithy epigram.
* * *
I … believe I once disparaged the usefulness of your artistic skill. I now find reason to call myself foolish for that presumption.”
A: I just have to point out that Jasnah apologizes to Shallan twice in this chapter: once for her lack of foresight concerning the assassination attempt and its effect on the ship, the crew, and Shallan; and once for underestimating the value of Shallan’s artwork.
It was nice to be reminded that, for all their differences, there were occasional things that she and Jasnah shared.
She just wished that ignorance weren’t at the top of the list.
Next week we’ll be covering chapter 34, which is a bit of a long one, so it’ll be alone. As always, join us in the comments for more theory-crafting (or just happy squee-ing that Jasnah is back).
Alice is so done with road trips for a while, having driven across the state of Washington six times in six weeks. Done. Now she’ll be returning to work on that long-promised article about the Kaladin album, to celebrate release of the physical CDs.
Lyndsey is finally nearing completion on her Star Lord cosplay, and can’t wait to challenge you all to dance-offs at future cons. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Wow first comment!
What I really want to know is, where does one find out about the Cosmere-building stuff outside of the SA and Mistborn? Where in Sanderson’s works did Cephandrius come from? Or Topaz? Was reading Warbreaker the only way to find out that Edgli was the Vessel of Endowment? How was I meant to have found out about Bavadin and Autonomy?
I remember asking a similar question a few months back about Frost and Hoid. How much of this knowledge can be obtained from reading Sanderson’s published works, and how much is WoB / unpublished / stuff only beta-readers have read?
Also, the map of Urithiru is incredible. I can’t wait till we finally see those places we haven’t been to yet, especially Rall Elorim and Azimir. What the heck happened there?
@1 Arcana Unbounded makes explicit a lot of stuff that used to just be WOB
I gotta admit, I was shipping Shallan/Jasnah pretty hard (no pun intended) pre-OB. But, that being said, I think people have misinterpreted Brandon’s tweeted response to the “Shallan is so bi” tweet. It seems some consider that confirmation, but I really don’t get that from his response.
Perhaps because I am closer to Jasnah’s age than I am to Shallan’s, but I honestly understand how Jasnah treats Shallan. I find it interesting to read, from Shallan’s perspective, how she thinks of herself as a grown-up now only to later prove her immaturity by acting like a sulky unenthusiastic child without realizing the effect her behavior is having. In this chapter, I felt Shallan suffers from an ailment common to many young people: she thinks she no longer needs to be tutored. Because she has done well by herself and she has had successes, she believes she no longer need the guidance nor to absorb the knowledge and an older and considerably more experienced woman. The hallmark of youth is to think things are eternal, it is to lack the life experience to have gone through many cycles, to know failures will follow success and more success will follow failures. Shallan here thinks she was successful once, hence she will always be successful. We see her carrying this attitude up until she brutally fails in Kholinar, surprised to realize that no, she can’t lie her way through everything.
Part 2 served a great segment to help humanize Jasnah, a character I have previously felt was very cold and difficult to relate to (for myself as a reader, I know many readers related to her, but I have struggled with her in the past). This chapter offers a perspective I can definitely relate and sympathize with. Jasnah reads as…. tired and about as over-whelmed as she is ever going to be. She found a new appreciation for Shallan’s artistic skills. I was sad Shallan was locked into her “me pout” mood to appreciate her discovery and the return of her mentor.
Speaking of which, this chapter made me wonder how things will play out within the next book given Shallan is now the Highlady Kholin, married to Adolin, and yet still ward to Queen Jasnah….. How will this work out? Won’t Adolin be send off to fight Voidbringers in Jah Keved? They will be apart now… won’t they?
On the matter of Shallan finding Jasnah beautiful, I am with Alice on this one. I too felt Shallan was merely envious of Jasnah’s beauty. We have to remember Alethi have their own standards and Shallan just falls short: she isn’t tall like they are, she isn’t curvy like they are, she doesn’t wear her hair like they do… Later in the book, we will see Evi transform from the Riran girl to an Alethi woman, having adopted their dressing, hair styles and trying to mimic their behavior only to crumble in tears at the incapacity of having a genuine conversation with anyone. I always felt this later chapter illustrated why Adolin fell in love with Shallan: she is much like his mother was. Different. Willowy. And able to have a genuine conversation without trying to manipulate him nor to score points in a contest only she would see.
Of course, I read Brandon’s comment on the matter of Shallan’s bisexuality. I felt he was confirming his intentions weren’t to write her as a bisexual character, but if readers wanted to interpret her as such and found they could relate to her more because of this, then it pleased him immensely. Hence, I took Shallan could be bisexual if readers wanted her to be, but doesn’t have to either. I think the author is leaving up to the readers to make up their minds though as far as canon goes, Shallan will probably remain heterosexual. So there probably won’t be a romance arc in between Shallan and another woman, but readers are perfectly free to adapt the story, in their minds, to fit other head-canons. Brandon has always been very open to readers doing this.
Prior to this illustration, I wrongly thought the oathgates were spread out around the outside of the tower. Having them all in one place makes a lot more sense from a practical and tactical perspective.
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I also giggled at “All she’d done was grope an eldritch spren.” Put that on your resume, Shallan. :-p
Jasnah hits Shallan with a test right away, ordering her to accurately draw the very intricate pillar and then engaging her in a weighty conversation while she does so. But maybe this isn’t as challenging a task for Shallan as it would be for me.
So first off, HUGE fan of Jasnah and her popping up earlier in the book when I thought she wouldn’t till the very end was a very nice surprise. I also love the “deleted” scene that was referenced because again we see a side of Jasnah not many people see, her care, her doubt, and her fear. I feel a large part of how Jasnah acts in this scene is her just trying to catch up on a monumental task. So like a scientist, you work from what you know, and you expand your knowledge base. She had been so focused using all her energy to saving the world from behind the scenes because she was so sure she would not be believed (she had mentioned in WoR how she had tried to reach out to scholars and other nobles about their parshendi and she was rebuffed) that she assumes everyone would be as singularly focused now that the end of the world has in fact come around. So she starts from where she left off with everyone including Shallan. It is as she goes along, that she realizes how not only her information on the desolation is out of date, but so too her relationships with those around her. I really appreciate that although rare, when Jasnah realizes she is wrong, she admits it and seeks to make amends. Jasnah can and has made mistakes. She tries to do better with each mistake she makes. I think that speaks miles to her character. Seriously the back 5 can’t come soon enough for me :)
@1 Gaz
As mentioned later, Arcanum Unbound is a good source of some tidbits, but since Hoid tends to be very background till much much later in the planning, you won’t find too much clear info about him in the books. Most of that is via WoB, and deep digging into the tiny tidbits we get. People figured out and then got confirmed Edgli is the name of endowment because the reference to the vibrant flowers that provide the dye for the clothing. They were referred to as the “Tears of Edgli” and were unique to a very specific location. People theorized they grew on top of where Endowments shardpool was underground. Bavadin and Autonomy is a lot of WoB as well. I believe the way you were meant to organically find out about them was through White Sand the graphic novels, but WoB tend to be ahead of the curve. I believe all this info we are to be able to eventually find out as the overall cosmere progresses, but some people are able to really dig in to the hints, and come out with really great ideas and theories that Sanderson sometimes confirms and sometimes RAFOs.
@3 Austin
Yeah, his response was more to say he did not write her with that in mind, but he understood why the person thought that, and is fine if they think that. So I take that as to say it wasn’t his intention, but if that individual wanted to think of her as Bi-sexual, he has nothing against it. Personally I agree. It wouldn’t change anything regarding the story and where Shallan could potentially go, and if anything would add potentially more directions she could go. So I do not see anything wrong with either thinking she is bi, or thinking she is just envious of Jasnah’s physicality. (not saying you were implying there was anything wrong with it of course).
I remember reading Shallan’s thought of “I’m able to handle anything” then having the warning music go off in my head. Then per, the cue, the rug is pulled and yep – she ‘s unbalanced again. Just did not realize how far she would have to go this book.
RE: Shallan being Bi – I really wish Brandon had used Veil to express this in some way. Her running around the bars and such could have confirmed something more strongly. But he choose not to, and she’s now in an committed relationship – so odd of us seeing her flirting with a woman are vastly reduced.
Personally, I also read Radiant as asexual.
But yes, I do like this meeting of student/teacher. It felt right for Jasnah’s character. Even if it did disappoint many fans.
Re: gemstones & heat – To fuse all them together requires Magic – or a Bondsmith.
On Earth, Emeralds can’t be heated over 900 degrees with out harming the stone – in ways that would harm the crystal structure. The structure that on Roshar lets it hold stormlight.
A Diamond melts at 3,550 °C.
The melting point of sapphire is 2040 °C.
And so forth. All the stones would oxidize or burn in real life before they bonded together.
The pillar is said to be almost like a mosaic of gems. Heat would not make that happen. It’s not colored glass. But bonding their spiritual and physical selves together might.
@1, like @2 said, read Arcana Unbounded, the intros Khriss and the afterwards of each story by Brandon. The Ars Arcanum at the end of the books also have tidbits thrown in. The Coppermind is a time suck, but also tries to collect the information in logical ways. Full of spoilers for any story not read yet however.
RE: The Letter
My impression was that the letter was a response to the one Hoid wrote in Way of Kings, mostly because it responds to the concerns expressed in that letter about Rayse.
RE: Kaladin in sketch
I’m not surprised Kaladin is there since he would have to bind her into the air in order to get that kind of perspective. Shallan’s “memory” would therefore include him.
This chapter is also where I flipped back to the interludes to make sure I wasn’t missing pages (I’ve had that happen before). But nope, no Jasnah reunion reactions :(
@10 – The response was in Words of Radiance
#9, @Braid_Tug: “All the stones would oxidize or burn in real life before they bonded together.” Highly technical point: not ruby/sapphire. Aluminum oxide is ash. You can’t burn ash. (It’s the ash you get by burning aluminum, as you might guess.)
Dalinar later rebuilds damaged buildings. Maybe he could also build something that hasn’t existed before like the pillar.
What exit did Jasnah use to leave Shadesmar? Hoid didn’t wait for her in the middle of a storm.
Aren’t the Parshendi also trapping spren in their gemhearts to change forms?
@14 birgit
This has been debated, but in my opinion Hoid does ask why Jasnah elsecalled to that remote location. Personally I think by that point Jasnah had finally attained enough stormlight perhaps through trade at a “money exchange” in one of the spren cities, and used it to create a junction to transition back to the physical world. I believe she chose a location so far from civilization to get her bearings and avoid getting ambushed by assassins. The reason she couldn’t in the deleted scene to me is because she did not have enough stormlight to create a junction to elsecall, and without the stormlight the only other option was a shardpool which is considered a perpendicularity or junction. When elsecallers elsecall, they are making a mini perpendicularity in which to travel through.
I confess that I ship Jasnadin (Jasnah and Kaladin), despite no evidence of any meaningful interactions between the two characters as of yet.
On an only very slightly related note, I almost wonder if Kaladin learning a lesson or two from the practical and calculating Jasnah might not be the push that he needs to accept his next ideal.
Good re-read this time! I love the letters; they are my favorite epigraphs. I am going to join the team that never read Shallan as bisexual. I am not bisexual but I am aware of other women’s beauty, especially if they are beautiful in a way I don’t feel beautiful, and we know Shallan feels this way about Jasnah. I especially think that when we compare her reaction to Jasnah it is very different from her reactions to Adolin and Kaladin, and she is DEFINITELY attracted to both of them. Perhaps that is the way it is though in same sex attractions?
I don’t read Radiant as asexual, more as just disinterested because she is goal focused. It is fun to see how we all read things so differently.
I remember when Jasnah was “killed”, I was shocked because I thought she was going to be one of the main characters. Didn’t know anything at that point about her being in the back five (or for that matter, that there was a back five, or even that this wasn’t a trilogy and there were more books to come, heh). I was pleasantly surprised when she showed back up at the end of WoR. Of course, she’s a Knight Radiant– quite plausible for her to survive if she had stormlight. I am very happy to finally have her back!
Her absence did allow Shallan the chance to Get Things Done in WoR, and Shallan continued tackling the big stuff in Oathbringer. It is odd to think that if Jasnah had made it to the Shattered Plains when she intended, Dalinar probably would have had his Knight Radiant weeks earlier (hmm, and certainly wouldn’t have put Amaram at the Radiants’ head, if Jasnah had any say on the matter).
I enjoy Jasnah’s view of Shallan, because she is the only one who seems to see Shallan as young and inexperienced, after all the extraordinary competence that Shallan has displayed over her weeks at the Shattered Plains and now Urithiru. I started to feel sorry for Shallan later in Oathbringer because other people just had an expectation that she would know instinctively how to handle the Unmade and Figure Things Out.
Shallan drawing Kaladin on the city map is amusing, but I can totally see why the artist in her wants to draw him. He does look elegant and dramatic hanging up there in the air.
About Shallan’s drawing, she sketches Kaladin during the meeting where she totally forgets to take notes and Jasnah remonstrates her for it.
So not commenting on anything of whether or not Shallan including Kaladin in the artwork of Urithiru means anything. Only commenting on her memories and prior artworks in relation to this. Shallan does not have to include everything in her memory when she draws. We have seen her take memories of people, and then alter how they look, change their poses, and even the surrounding environment. So Shallan could have excluded Kaladin from this artwork if she so chose to do so regardless if it was drawn from a “memory” or not. In prior artworks however, Shallan has included figures for reference (see the chasmfiend) or just for inclusion (see her artwork of the lait with the individual hunting for fish with a spear). So whether or not there is a greater meaning regarding his inclusion is up in the air as far as I am concerned, but it is definite that his inclusion was deliberate.
Roger @10 – As Austin noted, the letter from TWoK got a direct answer in WoR. However, it’s pretty clear that Hoid has been writing letters to every Shard he thinks might remotely be interested in keeping Odium in check, as well as anyone else that might be useful. It will certainly be interesting to see if he ever gets any help!
Re: Trapping Spren in gems.
Kadidin’s irrational fear from WoR that someone could find a way to take Syl from him isn’t so irrational after all. I am kind of waiting for Odium’s side to try trapping a Radiant’s spren
@9: Can you expend on what disappointed the fans about Jasnah in OB apart from not having read her reunion with Navani? I was personally very satisfied with Jasnah in this book. It is as I said, OB helped me relate to her character better and also helped me appreciate her. I enjoyed her viewpoints in Part 2. I recall when I was reading it, the first and the second time, I would usually stop whenever I hit a new Bridge 4 or Moash chapter, but read along if the next chapter was Jasnah. It surprised me as I did not expect this.
@17: Radiant was modeled out of how Shallan viewed Jasnah: her goal, when she made this persona, was to become someone who would be “more like Jasnah”. Hence, I find Radiant’s apparent lack of interest in romantic pursuits to be an expression of how Shallan reads Jasnah at the time when she outlays the ground work for Radiant’s character.
@18: When Jasnah was killed, I was surprised as seeing someone die so early in the books, but I never thought she would be a main protagonist. In fact, I was very bad at guessing who would be the main protagonists as I got it all wrong from the start.
Interesting comments you have about Shallan. I too felt there were expectations Shallan would deal with the Unmades, Shallan would figure out how to open the Oathgate, Shallan would find a solution, even during the initial confrontation with Re-Shephir, Adolin expected Shallan to fight her off. I don’t know what it means for the future though, are in-world characters having too strong expectations for the Radiants? Dalinar really seems to think only the Radiants mattered at the Thaylenah battle, so I can see a narrative arc where the contribution of normal people is not asked or is shoved aside thus increasing the expectations onto the Radiants to solve everything.
I don’t think Shallan adding Kaladin to the picture means anything in particular. It was a rather dramatic pose, I can see why, as an artist, she’d want to draw it. I never thought much of it nor do I think much of it now.
Not to speak for her, but I assumed Braid_Tug was referring to the disappointment of the fans who wanted to see the initial reactions of everyone when Jasnah walked in, and we didn’t get anyone’s first reaction. (Personally, I’m good with it this way, but many were not!)
For me, Jasnah is like Katniss in that I have to have her perspective to really like her. In Hunger Games the book, I liked Katniss, because even though other characters reacted poorly to her (and I could see why) I had her perspective to balance it and she was very likeable. But, in the movie, I only had what the other characters had been able to see and she wasn’t relatable or likeable (just as characters in the books often complained). Jasnah is similar for me that when we have other’s views of her only I have a hard time with her, but in her POV’s I see what’s going on behind the scenes and appreciate her more.
I do think it’s interesting how our own backgrounds influence how we perceive certain attributes of the characters. I also never read anything into Shallan’s admiring of Jasnah’s beauty. It seemed like a normal reaction for both someone who is self-conscious of their appearance and an artist used to very quickly taking in someone’s appearance.
@several
I feel the same way about woB and arcanum references, having read that book just once. All the Sibling references are getting me confused too; I just hear shshsh at that point, and move on to the next paragraph.
Longviewer @6 – “I just hear shshsh at that point, and move on to the next paragraph.”
BAHAHAHAahahaha Okay, fine, make me snort lunch up my nose! :D
Seriously, yes. I should stop talking about the Sibling until we get to the bit where Stormfather talks about them. I have theories, and every time I try to ask a question that has anything to do with them, Brandon refuses to give me a single solitary answer. So now I’m obsessing. :( I’ll work on that…
RE: Fabrial Gems and Spren
so far most fabrials (Like Soulcasters and Half SHard Sheilds) the gems in them eventual suffer from the natural flaws in the gems casuing the gem to break. I would assume this releases the trapped spren. SO far the only “perfect” Gem (one without any flaws) was used at the end of the book. – I am willing to bet every fabrial eventually suffers from the failure of the gem in it, andit wouldnt be like “locking the chull in a box forever”
Alice I agree with you that the pillar of crystals is the key to powering up Urithiru so it works properly. I also agree the key to tapping its potential lies with the Sibling. That said, if Urithiru and the Sibling do not have anything to do with each other, I think the secret of solving the pillar will be discovered during the gap between the time at the end of OB and the start of Book 4. Personally, this will not upset me. An infodump chapter will be sufficient. I do not need a real time discover. However, I wonder if most of the fandom would be in an uproar over that decision. If the Pillar is connected with the Sibling, then I think Brandon almost has to address the two in live time. From a narrative perspective, introducing a new character like the Sibling not in real time would be awkward.
The description of Jasnah in Chapter 33 says she has pure jet-black hair. Yet the Jasnah on the cover of OB has gray in her hair. What gives? Or did Shallan cause Jasnah to have so much stress between Chapter 33 and the Battle of Thaylen City that Jasnah’s hair started to turn gray?
Another reason that Jasnah is in such a weird position. She is someone who always seemed in control (if not actually in control). Not only did all those things she said happened, she is not the center anymore – the center of the wheel, if you will. Now Jasnah is merely a spoke. Somebody else is the center of the wheel. This lack of control, IMO, is the hardest adjustment for Jasnah.
Does anybody know if Elsecallers can travel to different points in the Physical Realm? Or can they only Eslecall from the Physical Realm to the Cognitive Realm and vice versa?
I thought Shallan added Kaladin for perspective. The only way for a person to reach the top of Urithiru from the outside is to fly to the top. At this point, Shallan has only seen Kaladin fly regularly. In WoR, she added people in her pictures of the stages of Chasmfiend pupation.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Re: melting gemstones – In my day job I just created a series of courses for a major gemstone company (which I can’t name, but you’ve probably all shopped there). From the technical source data, I can tell you that gemstones canNOT be melted and retain the crystalline lattice structure that makes them gemstones. So the pillar would need to have been created with magic.
Re: “insane” – We know it’s true the Heralds are insane, and many (all?) of the Fused are insane too. Is there a parallel? like, living too long destroys cognition? Or is it just a necessary coincidence for the plot?
Re: entrapping non-sapient spren – Are these spren even alive? Are they more like inanimate concepts? That would make a difference.
Re: the drawing of Urithuru – How did Shallan “take a memory” of the view from the east? Could she have Pattern do it for her? or maybe did she (off-camera) ask Kaladin for a (literal) lift so that she could see it? Interesting…
The way Jasnah talks to Shallan rubs me the wrong way in this chapter. I agree with others that Shallan still has a lot to learn and can benefit from Jasnah’s mentoring, but now that they are two of only a handful of Knights Radiant, it seems like Jasnah could speak to her less like a servant and more like a… little sister maybe? The whole “Do a sketch of this for me. Be certain to get the colors and proportions right, if you please” felt so harsh to me. If she had phrased it as a question it might not have taken me aback so much.
@30
I was very much thinking the latter.
@31
Jasnah is speaking to Shallan in this chapter the same way she did in Way of Kings, as teacher to ward. The reason I see why this grates on people is because Shallan no longer sees herself in that role, or at least resents being placed back in the role of an inferior (no matter how much she may feel inferior to that person).
@Erin, is it really surprising that Jasnah, a socially-isolated princess, might be too arrogant for her own and everyone else’s good? Brandon Sanderson rarely writes characters who are flawless. Heck, even his gods have personality flaws, why shouldn’t Jasnah?
@31 Erin – I felt exactly the same way, and I think it was Brandon’s intent that we all felt an emotional speed-bump at that point.
In that wonderful chapter toward the end of OB, with Jasnah and Renarin, she thinks back that the people who made fun of him as a boy had said the same kind of things about her, behind her back.
That made me think that she had/has a touch of Asperger syndrome too, like Renarin, in addition to her extreme intellect.
In my life, when I’m under stress my own “logic brain” tries to take over: it’s a coping mechanism against the scary feels, but it’s harsh & machine-like toward others, so I’ve learned I need to consciously keep it in check.
So maybe that’s where Jasnah is at: she just got back from a perilous journey in Shadesmar, only to find that her hard-won information is likely irrelevant; the tattered armies of her nation are holed up in a desolate abandoned city without adequate supplies or supply lines; other KRs have sprung up so that maybe she’s not the most advanced in her oaths any more; her uncle has bonded the Stormfather(!); the Everstorm has come; and the thing she expected to have to argue about (that the parsh could morph) is moot since people have seen it with their own eyes. It would be very unsettling to someone who was accustomed to always knowing more than everyone else.
(I guess I relate to Jasnah a lot, eh? Could be… ;-)
@25 Whitespine
I see where you are coming from. I kind of have a foot in both “pools” as it were. I love how much development we have gotten with Jasnah, despite it being so little, but also do not mind that we will one day get further into her head. I really like how Brandon has portrayed and treated her. Can’t say I have any complaints honestly lol :)
@28 Kyle DeBlasio
I am not certain that a broken gemstone will necessarily release the spren. One example is soulcasters as you can switch out gems that break without the soulcaster no longer functioning. Now soulcasters seem to be unique in a lot of ways when compared to standard fabrials, but it is also our first up close look at a surge related fabrial at any length of time (I do not count the regrowth fabrial as it is used briefly in a flash back and by Nale. We do not get to hear what Navani ultimately learns from examining it. All we get to hear is her feeling that everything they thought they knew could be wrong.). So the way soulcasters function could be a good base line potentially for other surge related fabrials. The oathgate seems to be another. It does not seem to, at least outwardly, to have a gemstone holding a specific spren. The gemstones are used to put stormlight in to fuel it, not contain spren. So I am very interested to learn more about these surge fabrials and how they function.
@29 AndrewHB
I personally (totally opinion) do not feel the resolution to Urithiru being powered up (whatever that resolution may be), will take place off screen. However I think what will have taken place off screen is all their efforts to get it to work failing, and them trying to exist in the tower despite its inhospitableness. It would raise the tension when we are returned, because they will be near the end of their ropes regarding Urithiru and be considering abandoning the bastion which would be a huge blow to the war effort. Then I think some plot points will come up over the course of the book to where midway through it, they figure out the solution and Urithiru comes on line. Or perhaps it ends up being part of the “Sanderson Landslide” or whatever it is referred to as where at the climax Urithiru comes on line and helps the radiants repel Odium once more. This could potentially be seen as formulaic but it works for me. All conjecture, but that is where I think the story of Urithiru is potentially going.
As to Jasnah on the cover, it has been commented on many aspects of the Artwork, that it is artistic license. So Jasnah does not float on steps in the actual scene. Soulcasting does not actually function as shown on the cover(we have seen it is almost like a shardblade, where mist suddenly condenses into the material when done from air, but it occurs so quickly you can miss it), and so on. So I say this all to say, do not take the cover too literal.
I agree. It is a failing of Jasnah. Although she has no problem deferring to someone else’s judgement, this project was very much her “baby”. No one believed her, and she worked exhaustively with stress and fear trying to stop the dam breaking with tape and glue. It consumed her. Now she returns to find that all taken away from her. So it is an adjustment.
So regarding Elsecalling, there is a bit of a debate on that. Some feel they can only travel between the physical realm and the cognitive realm. I disagree with this, and as such can only really do justice in explaining the side of the argument that feels they can teleport from a physical location to another physical location. The biggest evidence I feel that supports that is the oathgates. It is literally a fabrial of the surge of transportation. This I feel is supported by the spren we see connected to the oathgate in the cognitive realm by Shallan. One to me clearly looks like Ivory and would be an Elsecaller spren. Now it could be argued that depending on what order the other spren is associated with (I think it is a willshaper spren, thereby strengthening the power of the oathgate enough to transport so many), that that spren could change how transportation functions allowing it to go from physical to physical. Obviously I disagree with this for the reason I mentioned in the parenthesis. Personally I feel willshapers are much more precise with transportation, but that both can transport from the physical to the cognitve and back, but also transport from the physical to the physical. Currently Brandon is still working out that function. He wants it (at least directly regarding the oathgates) to work by traveling from the physical, through the spiritual (since its all places and all times), instantaneously back to the new physical location. This becomes a problem though once you get to planetary transportation and light travel. So it has not been explicitly stated, and Brandon seems to want to keep it secret till we get a willshaper using it, but I think they can go both from the physical to the cognitive and back, and physical to physical.
Little side note, the chull pupation illustration was not Shallan’s artwork. For reference in WoR, her artwork was the santhid, pattern, the lait, the shardblades/armor, Veil walking, the chasm, the chasmfiend, and the whitespine. Even the map of the shattered plains was not Shallan’s version. That was Nazh.
@30 aggie1
So yes and no. Regarding the heralds and the fused specifically as cognitive shadows it is a yes because a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy degrades over time. That is what is happening each time the heralds come back. Their investiture copy of their soul is degrading with each subsequent return. Now in other novels, not to cause spoilers, but there are other immortals that over a long enough period of time, do get tired of it, and chose to die voluntarily. But that functions differently than the heralds and the fused.
Well what do you consider alive? Biological function? Sapience? Sentience? If it is purely biological, then in the physical realm they do not, but in the cognitive realm they are biological enough for hemalurgy. If it is sapience (the ability to reason with giving information), then the radiant spren do count. If it is sentience (reaction to stimuli), then the common spren do count. So it really depends on what you consider is alive
It is accepted that Kaladin gave her the lift as prior to him returning she mused on requesting him to do exactly that.
@31 Erin
I understand where you are coming from, but Wardship is a teacher student relationship which commonly does involve the teacher giving their student assignments. I do understand the seeming harshness could be off putting.
@32 RogerPavelle
Ah, great minds think alike lol
@34 aggie1
I agree on all points :)
@23, Gepeto – Alice has it right @24. Like what Austin said @11. Some fans really miss the “Jasnah you’re back!” reactions. Like Alice, I’m not sure they were needed. Sanderson never wrote any of them that a Beta saw. So he must think they are un-needed too. It’s a scene that could be emotionally fulling, but does not drive the plot forward. Yet Jasnah is so reserved, the emotions might not be on display like some fans would want. Better to skip.
Jasnah and Navani have such a complicated, yet loving, relationship that I’d wish we saw more of them interacting. And their loving is not expressed in outward or traditional ways. Loving as in respecting each other and the odd ways of expressing the concern.
@13, Carl: Yes, sorry I over simplified.
@30, aggie1: Thanks for adding more information on the pillar.
I just finished reading another series, The Arcadia Project by Mishell Baker. The trapping of spirts for functional reasons becomes a major plot point. I can’t help but think of the fabrials and spren. Logic brain & emotional brain are discussed in the books too. Most of the characters have a behavioral and/or emotional disorder of various flavors.
@35 I don’t think soulcasters are powered by spren. Like with dead shardplate, the gems are there to hold stormlight rather than spren.
It’s unclear if the Heralds’ madness is caused by them abandoning the Oathpack (which is what I assumed back when Nale was just Darkness), being tortured for so long (it seems to be the case for Taln), or just for kicking around for so many millennia. I don’t think it’s strictly the same reason as the Fused though. I would guess that the Heralds are more Invested than the Fused. They also seem to have kept their own bodies which probably causes less damage to them than the Fused taking new ones on resurrection.
@36 I really liked Dalinar asking Navani how she mothered Jasnah and she said that it was mostly by not letting Jasnah know.
@37 noblehunter
I never said the spren are powering the soulcaster. I feel the spren provide the means to use the surge, and the gemstones hold the stormlight that powers it. That is why I feel the gemstones shattering would not release the spren as they are not in the gemstones to begin with. At least I theorize that specifically with surge fabrials
So I feel there are two “types” of “madness” going on here. When the heralds kept coming back after torture during the desolations,they started to get more and more unhinged because of the copy of a copy of a copy thing I mentioned. When they abandoned the oathpact, I feel they are acting inverse to their ideals as result. The fused have returned so many times after so many deaths, that some are purely unintelligible. As to the heralds body, I believe the body is a normal person on Roshar, taken over by the cognitive shadow somehow being stapled to the body. The physical form is then altered to match the investiture form. This is a theory regarding Secret History that I feel also applies to the heralds. You are of course perfectly entitled to disagree, as it is a theory.
@38 I get the impression that soulcasters are in a completely different class of object than modern fabrials (heat or pain). I thought they were relics, which is why Azir having a bronze soulcaster is worth showing off. They can’t make any new ones.
We don’t seem to have any information on how the Heralds have a constant physical form between desolations. The simplest explanation is Honor just made them new bodies. I don’t think they come back via possession like the Fused do, if only because the poor soul they take over can’t have agreed to it.
@39 noblehunter
Please re-read my post numbered 35, but I will repeat it here. There are modern day fabrials such as the repelling, and spanreeds. However there are surge fabrials such as soulcasters that allow the user to use a surge. Examples of this are soulcasters (transformation), oathgates (transportation), and the fabrial we see the radiant use in the flashback, and Nale use on Szeth (regrowth). Everything I wrote was in regards to surge fabrials specifically. Not modern day fabrials. Hopefully that clarifies things.
You assume they have a constant physical form when they go to Braize. I feel based on the information we have in the stormlight archive as well as the short story secret history, lends me to believe when the heralds return to braize, they either return when the body they inhabit is destroyed/died, or they voluntarily leave the body and travel back to Braize for torture. When they can no longer withstand the torture, and return resulting in a new desolation, they possess a body and their cognitive self infused with investiture alters the physical realms manifestation of the body they possessed to match the cognitive shadow now possessing it. This also would answer what happens to the herald’s body when they “die” during a desolation and automatically are sent back to Braize, as had occurred with Taln at the last true desolation. This also explains why Sanderson keeps referring to Taln as the “man who thinks he is Taln”. Because the “body” isn’t Taln, and since Taln is so screwed up from the 4000 years torture, his cognitive self taking over the body’s cognitive self is getting all disjointed. What I am curious about, is what function allows the Herald and the Fused to stick to the body while (secret history spoiler ) Kelsier requires Hemalurgy. I do not think a “poor soul” getting possessed is enough to say the process does not function the way I posit. But it is a theory, and I respect you think differently.
edit: actually found a WoB that seems to (in my opinion) confirm that the Heralds lack a body when on Braize. copied below
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Hypothetically speaking, if some of the main Radiants were to die at the end of book 5, go to Braize and then spend the time in between 5 and 6 there, would they age?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
There are lots of problems with that question. If a Radiant dies, they don’t go to Braize. A Herald would, but a Herald is a Cognitive Shadow, so there’s inherent problems in there. When you’re a Cognitive Shadow, aging is different there, because you’re basically a ghost. Even if you’ve been stapled to a body, it happens weirdly. So there’s all kinds of flaws in that question.
#40, @Scáth: there are clearly several ways to “staple” a Cognitive Shadow to a body. Endowment just does it, for instance, but a Returned may have it easier because it’s their own body and there isn’t another inhabitant there already. Vasher and Shashara attached the Nightblood spirit they apparently made into a metallic body, for that matter, just by using lots of Investiture.
I still don’t like the idea of the Heralds possessing some poor Rosharan, though. Not saying you’re wrong, saying I don’t like the idea.
I wonder if the Surge of Illumination being particularly connected with the Spiritual Realm has anything to do with Shallan’s and Renarin’s heightened sensitivity to Re-Shepir and possibly the Unmade in general? IIRC, Shallan also feels the presence of the Unmade in Kholinar more strongly than Kaladin. And it isn’t like normal people didn’t have a certain sense of oppression in Urithiru while Midnight Mother was still in residence, ditto the inhabitants of Kholinar towards the Unmade there. Dalinar may have been particularly insulated through his fixation on the overall problems of the world facing a Desolation and possibly also due to his fondness of the spaces high atop the tower, as far as possible from Re-Shepir’s lair and bathed in light.
Concerning the Heralds’ madness, I really don’t see why PTSD from centuries of torture, punctuated by periods of horrific wars culiminating in gruesome deaths and return to more torture, leave alone the crushing sense of guilt for when they were the reason for a given Desolation wouldn’t account for whatever degree of unhingyness they had prior to breaking the Oathpact. No need for “copy of a copy” stuff, because no copying was taking place. It was always the same cognitive shadow enduring this, which, of course, lead to cumulative damage. And their madness after breaking the Oathpact – well, between even more guilt and Honor’s madness and death, not to mention whatever damage splinters of Honor, as they were/are may suffer from breaking an oath, there are a lot of causes to choose from.
Personally, I have a crack-pot theory that “certain measures we took” mentioned by Nale, that supposedly were helping to prevent a Desolation and were the reason why he worked so hard against the return of the other Orders, were more than mere figments of his insanity and in fact helped both to shore up Taln’s resistance and to drive the apostate Heralds completely bonkers. IMHO, it would explain as to how the renegade Heralds, who weren’t yet completely mad when they broke the Oathpact, could have believed that Taln, heroic as he is, could possibly hold out forever and for how he managed to resist for as long as he did.
As to the Fused, again an unending string of wars and deaths would drive one insane, no? Taking over the bodies also seems damaging to them in the long run and Odium has invested much less in every individual Fused then Honor did with the Heralds. Not to mention that we don’t know what happens to them whilst they sojourn on Braize in interim – judging by Venli, Odium likes to torture his servants, too. The Heralds were the best of the best, the greatest heroes of their time, while the Fused are, by necessity, a more mixed crowd, which could explain their greater mental fragility, and the difference of being sustained by Odium versus Honor could play a role there as well. BTW, when the Fused take over bodies, there is a limited change – the bodies retain their original features, adapted to a new form, but Fused souls change the marblings of the bodies they posess, which are very individual markers for the singers.
I think it is possible that incarnation of the Heralds is closer to that of the Returned than to that of the Fused – stealing a living person’s body is not… honorable. But stapling their cognitive shadows to the body of somebody who has just died would be possible for a Shardic power, as we know, and maybe also makes the changes to said body easier, even when it is not their own, but somebody else’s, as must have been the case with the Heralds. It would explain where Taln’s rags came from when he first burst into Kholinar in WoK, for instance. OTOH, he was also covered with condensation like a newly summoned shardblade, so I dunno. Also, bodies of Heralds must have vanished somehow when they returned to Braize after the Desolations or when they got themselves killed, methinks, or there would have been a lot of terror and confusion every time they left, which doesn’t seem to have been the case. Hm…
Concerning Jasnah – I was among those who felt cheated when her return didn’t happen on-screen. All that emotional build-up without the pay-off. And it isn’t – or it shouldn’t have been just about her and Navani. IMHO, the (non-)reaction of Kholins in general to her “death” and then miraclious “ressurection” feels completely unbelievable. We now know that not just her mother, but Dalinar and his brood actually had a fond and somewhat close relationship to Jasnah. But even if that hadn’t been the case, there should have been reactions both to her “demise” and to her return, as those were events bearing on the whole family, given her role in it. And, of course, her relationship with Ehlokar remains a complete enigma, because Sanderson never deigned to show us the 2 together and now he is dead. I realise that he wanted to keep her connection with Renarin under wraps and that she’ll get a book of her own, oh a couple of decades or so in our RL future, but the way this was handled still feels completely artificial and contrived to me and pulled me out of the narrative, somewhat. Also, robbed Ehlokar’s death of the greater emotional impact that it could have had if we had seen out of his eyes, even just the once. BTW – shouldn’t _he_ as an incipient Lightweaver have felt Re-Shepir’s presence too? Perhaps Ashertmarn’s to a greater degree like Shallan as well? He could have been another data point, but we’ll never know now.
Jasnah is my favourite character in SA, along with Dalinar, so I was naturally very glad to have her back so soon into OB. And I mostly very much enjoyed her (too few!) PoVs and on-screen appearances. BTW, I thought that her humanity was very evident even from Shallan’s viewpoints in WoK and WoR, but of course this is even better. OTOH, even having read the non-canonical chapter and getting this current non-explanation, it is still unclear to me why Jasnah didn’t just soulcast her would-be assassins into something or dispatched them with her shardblade. She did have emergency stormlight for the first and more in her trunks in arm’s reach and while I used to think that she might not have had her blade yet at that point, her obvious proficiency with it at the Battle of Thaylenah suggests to me that she must have had it for a while and even managed to snag some quality training somewhere prior to meeting Shallan. So, why the odd “play dead” scenario? For that matter, how could she have been surprised like that – shouldn’t Ivory have kept watch while she slept, as a matter of routine, given that there were other attempts before Kabsal? I hope that Sanderson gives it all a bit more thought before he comes up with canonical explanation.
It very odd as well that Jasnah ostensibly didn’t get _any_ new and pertinent information in Shadesmar, given that she apparently bearded the highspren in their den and they should have a unique perspective on what’s going on, not to mention some privileged knowledge, given that their civilization wasn’t upended during the Recreance?
I do think that the Elsecallers can travel between points in physical realm, but maybe only arrive at those “junctions”, where it is close to the Cognitive? Which, BTW, I guess that those odd cylindrical chambers in/by the grand meeting hall in Urithiru are – points where Elsecallers and Willshapers could conveniently exit Shadesmar without being in the way. Maybe that place in Unclaimed Hills where Jasnah arrived in the WoR epilogue was the closest transition spot to the Shattered Plains that she could get to? Or as far as a spren ship would take her, given that she must have dived from the deck of one to transfer.
I, for one, am pretty sure that waking of the Sibling is going to be a major plot point in the next book, along with an expedition to the Horneater Peaks and whatever Rlain is up to after last seen in part 2 of OB. Oh, and whatever Venli is doing, can’t forget that.
Anyway, I don’t think that trapping non-sapient spren in fabrials is any more contraversial or traumatic than them getting bonded to various Rosharan fauna and trapped in their gemhearts. Maybe there should be a rule for letting them go after a certain period of time, but no more than that. It has been repeatedly hinted both in texts and in WoBs that fabrial science is the future of Roshar and I can’t see it happening if the author considered the practice heinious.
OTOH, it seems to be traumatic for the sapient spren and even for the not-quite-sapient Unmade, such as Re-Shepir and Nergaoul. I have to wonder whether the Skybreakers didn’t capture the spren of the proto-Radiants they killed, to discourage further attempts on the spren side? And to conceal what they were doing from the other residents of Shadesmar. If so, there may be a cache of captive Radiant spren somewhere and I can only hope that Nale doesn’t serve them to the Fused and Odium on a silver platter.
It also wouldn’t surpise me if the method for taking the Radiant spren off-world includes putting them into gemstones. In fact, I have theorised that the prophecy of Puuli’s interlude may refer to descendants of Radiants who left Roshar to settle in Silverlight bringing their ancient spren back. It is all crack-pot at this point – there is no evidence that they ever did leave, but I think it likely that some did rather than commit Recreance, or, in case of intrepid explorers such as Willshapers and scholars such as Elsecallers, even earlier. There is also a WoB that there are some few spren in the Cognitive Realm of Scadrial, brought over from Roshar, which hints at such a possibility.
@25: I liked Katniss. At the time, I felt she was the anti-Bella and she had agency of her own. I never struggled to feel sympathetic to her, though she did was a difficult to approach individual.
@29: I never noticed gray within Jasnah’s hair on OB’s cover, I will need to take a closer look… Based on what we have read so far, Brandon assumes people’s hair only start to gray when they reach their fifties. *Sigh* A lot of mid-thirty people have a lot of gray hair. Worst, even, some people start graying while being within their twenties. The. Horror. Luckily, hair dyes exist, but I did wonder about the nonexistence of young gray heads in Alethkar.
@31: But Shallan remains a 17 years old teenager. Jasnah may be the only one who may treat Shallan as she ought to be treated. The opposite, assuming Shallan will solve everything because she did solve one or two things, is equally grating, IMHO.
@33: I think Jasnah’s flaws are arrogance and the belief in her intellectual superiority which makes her unlikely to listen to the counsel of people she does not respect. Unfortunately, she respects no one except her uncle, her mother and Renarin.
I came across one quote during my re-read. Dalinar makes a political mistake in suggesting they force the banks to stay in Thaylenah, a mistake Navani promptly points out and Dalinar is quick to correct. He then thinks on how Jasnah would have take ownership of the banks and use their wealth to finance the army……… exactly what Navani says you cannot do as banks must remain free.
Now, I know very few readers partake my thoughts, but I still do not trust Jasnah as Queen. I do not trust being “smarter than everyone else” is what makes a good sovereign. On the opposite, I think Jasnah firmly believing she is smarter than everyone else, her trouble with empathy and her goal-oriented viewing of ruling will not produce great results. She should not be the one in charge: her skill-sets are more suitable for a trusted adviser, but not as the person who makes all of the decisions.
I also predict conflicts in between Queen Jasnah and Highprince Adolin… and I predict Shallan will be stuck in between the two. Why? Because Jasnah does not respect Adolin: she believes him to be an intellectually inferior, hence not someone she will listen to. This may put Shallan into an unwanted position.
@26: Ah thanks for clarifying. We had this discussion a few weeks back and my position remains the same as Isilel: I wished we had those scenes. I however agree it may have been the emotions wouldn’t have flowed nicely because of Jasnah’s personality.
My thoughts are thus while Brandon writes strong emotional content for his main protagonists, while he writes good emotional content for his minor characters (Bridge 4), he struggles in finding the right amount of emotional content to add within his side-characters narrative. Hence, I have often felt characters such as Navani, Jasnah, Adolin and even Elhokar’s narratives didn’t carry on their share of the emotional content.
Hence, after my re-read, I’d say this is one of the weakness of OB, how it is unbalanced and how it struggled to really play with the readers emotions. We are moving into Part 2 and while I understand what Brandon wanted to do, Part 2 was honestly terrible for pacing.
Re: Shallan’s bisexuality, I am with Alice and Gepeto. Shallan is just envious of Jasnah’s beauty.
I’ll end this short comment with a quote from Forest Gump, “that’s all I have to say about that.” :-)
@43 Jasnah is self-aware enough to realize simply being the smartest person in the room doesn’t mean she’ll be a good queen. She recognizes she’s bad enough at teaching to avoid taking wards until Shallan badgers her way into it. She knows that she doesn’t know everything and that her brilliance in her chosen fields doesn’t make up for her ignorance in other areas.
@44 I find it’s easier to assume all characters are bisexual unless explicitly stated otherwise.
noblehunter @@@@@ 45: Following your logic, then there is something brewing between Adolin and Kaladin… *gasps*** Nooooooo!!!! *faints*
@43 Gepeto
I wouldn’t necessarily trust her either. We already have the example of Taravangian to show the problems with “smarter than everyone else”. I’m wondering if she is being set up as a contrast to him for future actions or reactions.
Shallan is a kid, relatively speaking. That being said, she’s an incredibly talented kid. OTOH, she’s the ward of a woman who is counted as one of the world’s most powerful intellects, widely admired and feared. Its not like Shallan is the ward of an ordinary teacher – she’s the extraordinary student of one of the world’s finest and most capable scholars. As such, the bar is very high. This is MIT, not community college. Shallan is already extremely capable, but I suspect Jasnah wouldn’t be interested in her if she hadn’t displayed that capability. Jasnah is counting on Shallan to be the intellectual power in the most important highprincedom in the kingdom, as well as a future leader of the KR.
So yes, insanely high expectations but Shallan still has a lot to learn to get to Jasnah’s level.
@Isilel, Shallan was using the assassins to fake her death so the Ghostbloods would leave her alone to do research on the Other Side. She admits that she didn’t think through what would happen to Shallan and the crew after she vanished. Infallible she is not, that entire plan didn’t work at all–she seemingly got several people killed while learning nothing of value.
Note that Shallan could and did Elsecall, even though in this book Jasnah decides she can’t. We saw her do it. Therefore, I am guessing (just a guess) that as she spoke more Truths, she was bound more firmly into the artificial structure of the Radiant Orders. A non-Radiant Surgebinder like the original refugees from Ashyn is presumably not as restricted as a Knight Radiant and could (did) use more than two Surges.
@Gepeto: I started going gray in my twenties, but now in my fifties I’m still less than halfway. However, I’m losing the remaining hair of all colors … Note that Sanderson can do whatever he wants to Rosharans since they’re canonically not our species and don’t have to follow our biology.
I have been 17. Like you, I was perfectly capable of being an adult at that age. Fully mature, no. Adult, sure.
I have to say that Jasnah respects lots of people other than her relatives–they’re just very minor supporting characters, to date. Another flaw she has (speaking as a teacher and technical writer who had to overcome it myself) is that she can’t speak to people in their own style. Her note to Queen Fen was not persuasive because she didn’t take into account the personalities and priorities of her audience. Her mother, more experienced, did a far better job. I believe Jasnah is smart enough to realize this and try to improve.
I don’t think Jasnah lacks compassion, by the way. Look at the way she comforts Renarin. She’s just very shy and covers it with an artificially icy demeanor … just like Brightness Radiant. Shallan is (literally) supernaturally perceptive sometimes and she based Radiant on Jasnah.
@48: I wondered about the same. I wondered if Jasnah will not be settle to prove higher intelligence does not equate better ruler. No matter how I twist her character around, I cannot see her inability to feel empathy and her cold-heartened logic providing the expected results of greatness. I believe Jasnah will make many decision which will perhaps help them move forward with their goal, but will have a huge human cost, not unlike Taravangian.
@49: Considering the fact I plucked my first gray hair out of my head at the age of 15, I often take note on how old writers insert gray hair into their character’s head. Usually, it is very late. Hence Dalinar, at 50, is only starting to gray. Of course, Brandon can allow himself all sort of licenses considering Alethi are not normal humans, but I took note he did treat balding decently: he has his young thirties characters be bald (Elit Ruthar and General’s Khal’s younger son).
I checked the picture on OB once again and I can see what you meant with the gray hair. They do look silvery on the temples.
I consider there is a difference in believing you are an adult, at 17, and actually being one. Shallan might think whatever she wants: she is not an adult, not yet anyway.
Jasnah also respects her two versitalians friends and probably other very minor characters, but my point was she does not respect a lot of people. She respects none of the Highprinces including her own cousin Adolin (she does not respect his intellectual capacities, she thinks him dumb which is why he wanted him married off to a smart women, she did not think Adolin could manage without someone she approved of next to him). I cannot see her working to reach a compromise nor actually listening to advise being offered by the other Highprinces: I see her shoving them aside as they are all “insignificant” to her and make her own decisions without considering their inputs might be valid.
I think the letters written to the Azir are a good example. Jasnah is also in her mid-thirties: she won’t change her personality now. She will always struggle to read other people’s emotions and personalities: she isn’t going to “learn this skill” using her “superior intellect” as this is precisely where her intellect fails her. She only sees think from one side, from the rational side: seeing them from another perspective would require her to have the humility to listen to others knowing better than her on the matter. There is Navani, but maybe just Navani will not be enough.
Readers put a lot of emphasis on Jasnah sparing Renarin. I will write the same commentary I wrote before: Jasnah loves Renarin dearly. Clearly, he is her favorite. She has a VERY strong emotional attachment to him and even then she considered murdering him. Ultimately, she didn’t, but it was a near thing. Hence, I certainly do not expect Jasnah will be bursting out of empathy because of this one scene.
Hence, I firmly remain on my initial position, no matter how unpopular is currently is: Jasnah will not be the great Queen readers expect her to be. She will be half-effective, half-disaster, but ultimately, I do not think she was the right choice.
I love the epigraphs. I got really excited when I recognized the Harmony reference :) I don’t recall if I recognized Bavadin and didn’t really think too hard about who was the first letter writer, but your deduction seems pretty sound for now.
No insights, but reading your theories about the Sibling/Urithiru with great interest :)
I’d never read that Jasnah (rough) chapter before and aaah – I wish something like that had made it into the book. And now I wonder if that somehow explains the lucky happening of the trunk showing up on shore :) I loved the insight it gave into Jasnah’s mind and emotions as well. More Jasnah :)
To just throw my two cents in regarding Jasnah/Shallan – I also read it as a wistful admiration since it’s something I’ve felt myself many times since my looks were never ranked highly by my peers, to put it lightly, and I never really developed a self image that wasn’t somewhat aware of this. It didn’t read the same way her thoughts about Kaladin and Adolin did. Not saying she is or isn’t, but those particular passages didn’t make me think she was. I’ve definitely had ‘crushes’ on other girls that weren’t sexual/romantic in nature, but more about wanting to be LIKE those girls.
As for Jasnah’s queenship – I think time will tell. I doubt it will be all nicely wrapped up and go perfectly, but I can see some potential to make her a kind of anti-Taravangian. Even if she can’t learn some of those skills for herself (and even in her thirties, I think she could – it’s a skill I’m still learning), she may be intelligent enough to find advisors who can asisst her in that area.
@51 I also want to point that Empathy comes on two different points on the scale. Cognative empathy vs affective aka emotional empathy, and there is a BIG difference between the two. I’ve mentioned Asperger’s before. The thing is to an outsider looking in BOTH can often look similar. But function VERY differntly.
I am going to quote some relevant parts:
I bolded that last bit myself because I have a theory that may be what’s going on with Jasnah. It’s true that only time will tell. But it’s something to keep. in mind Rember how the fandom first percived Steris when we saw her? I admit I didn’t even make the connection until book three, AND I am someone who is CLINICALLY diagnosed.
ONE (or two, or three) more bit that MAY be relaveant espically to those who think she Jasnah MAY be a mirror image to big-T. And this goes back to how the Sociopath tell lies alot while people with Asperger’s RARELY if ever DO
Logical Thinking. To the point that an Aspie can border Cloudcuckoolander territory, they think in a very step-by-step manner, each conclusion a result of the one before. And it all works perfectly, except for when it doesn’t, because society as a whole isn’t perfectly logical and predictable. We all know the world is crazy, but only an Aspie would think you can make sense of society by categorising every facet of it seperately.
An Aspie: “The most irrational thing about society is that it thinks I’M the irrational one.”
Another Aspie: “I understand, on a logical level, why people behave that way. I just don’t see the point of it on a practical one.”
Literal Thinking.
Along with logical thinking, nearly every aspect of Asperger Syndrome links back to how strongly this characteristic presents itself. Generally associated with their difficulties with metaphors, sarcasm, and satire. But to pretend the world is other than you see it as, is to the literal-minded Aspie an illogical and irrational course of action. This leads to them speaking their mind with no regard for the opinions of others, which makes them terrible liars. Those who are taught to be ‘polite’ and keep their thoughts to themselves are still prone to outbursts of emotion which can come as an unpleasant surprise to others and obviously doesn’t help in social situations at all.
This is a frequently disputed point. Many Aspies understand sarcasm, metaphor, analogy, and satire very well. Many can also be very adept liars due to their understanding of language and nuance (though lying tends to be rare and is usually for a deliberate and specific reason due to the effect it has on the Aspie’s strong conscience). The point of dispute is that while taking things literally and straightforward is the “default mode” for most Aspies, it is by no means the only mode of operation. Furthermore, for many Aspies, the illogical aspect of pretending the world is other than that which it is lies less in the literal and direct thinking and more in that such self-delusion makes little sense to the Aspie mind as a general rule.
An Aspie: “If we see the world differently, why should I pretend it is anything other than how I see it? Why should you pretend? Once we know we disagree we can agree on a compromise, rather than lying. Then we can be friends.”
In short how many times have we seen Jasnah lie, in thought or outside of her thoughts to people. To her it is illogical to lie to people. It is illogical to pretend that reality is anything other than what it is. (Of course I could be projecting my own thoughts hear, that is quite possible). Also Whereas you have someone like Big-T saying you HAVE to commit to one method or the other LOGIC OR COMPASSION Jasnah (At least GIVEN what little we see of her) seems to be saying (when the Renarin thing comes that they are the same thing) Some have said that she ONLY cared BECAUSE it was Renarin, someone she cared about intimately. May I provide an alternative a similar, but alternative explanation. It was easier for her to UNDERSTAND Renarin because she knew him well. Have someone who can translate the emotional argumaments of the Parshmen into a logical explantion that she can understand and I believe she will come around.
For a personal example. A book that I needed to read,but wouldn’t have if it wasn’t recommend by NPR, [was Strangers In Their Own Land: Angers And Mourning On The American Right by Arlie Russel Hoschild an Edgedancer of the Highest order, I mean a sociological from Berkley. It made it made it possible for me to empathize and understand Trump supporters while still not siding with their political views.]
@mods may or may not want to white out the part between brackets as it contains a real world political reference.
Gepeto @@@@@ 50
My grandmother died when she was 96 and she was only halfway gray. In fact, she was the perfect example of salt and pepper. And if I remember correctly, she did not get any gray hair until she was well into her 60s.
My mother is the same. She did not get any gray hairs until she was past 60.
On the flip side, my mother-in-law according to her was totally gray by time she was 35. My brother-in-law, her eldest son took after her.
As you see, even us among humans, it is different.
Just my two cents.
Carl @@@@@49 – Please explain to me where Shallan was able to Elsecall?
sheiglagh @@@@@ 53 – That’s so close to what I was going to say! My dad greyed early, visibly starting in his 20s or so. My mom, at 72, had a total of three grey hairs. By the time my dad was in his 60s, his hair was completely white; when he passed away at 97, it was thinning but he still had plenty of snow-white hair. When my mom passed away at 86, she had a tiny streak of white on one side, and a few more white hairs sprinkled through lots of deep brown hair. If you didn’t look closely, you might not realize she was greying at all. Me… I got some of both. I got my mom’s white streak – but I got it starting in my late teens. The streak is still visible; it’s just spread so that if you see me from the front, my hair is silver, but from the back it’s still brown. Go figure.
@53: I know it is different for all people, but my point is authors, the publicity industry, the entertainment industry, they nearly always consider graying only happens for people above the age of 50. My point wasn’t to say it was impossible for people to only gray at an older age, everyone knows it is, but if we are to believe the entertainment industry, graying almost never happens at a young age.
From memory, I would say Robert Jordan is one of the only author I have seen treat gray hair in a more realistic manner. He had Nynaeve yearn for her first gray hair to earn respect and Lews Therin graying before his years.
Now, I don’t mean to say Jasnah should get gray hair, but I have noticed how no one “young” seem to have them within SA.
@54 Wetlandernw
Shallan Elsecalled in Way of Kings. She transformed a ?vase? into blood, which led people to think she tried to commit suicide. She also transported herself to Shadesmar.
Soulcasting is the Surge Shallan shares with Jasnah. It doesn’t make her an Elsecaller. She probably didn’t really go to Shadesmar, she just saw into it but was still there in the normal world from other people’s POV while Jasnah vanishes when she goes to Shadesmar and can reappear at a different place. When Kaladin trained his abilities he once also got a look into Shadesmar. We don’t know if this can happen for all orders, but it isn’t a unique Elsecaller ability.
#s 54 and 57, Shallan was clearly in Shadesmar. Jasnah even tells her she was a fool to enter Shadesmar without enough Stormlight. (This is Jasnah at her worst, in some ways, as she berates Shallan for not knowing something that she couldn’t possibly know, and something Jasnah herself has carefully kept secret.) For Jasnah to later deny that Shallan can Elsecall is either another mistake by Jasnah, or Sanderson retconning that incident. I hate retcons so I’m treating it as the former.
Ok so a lot to catch up on. Here we go!
@41 Carl
So although endowment does infuse the Returned with investiture and reattach them to their own bodies, Nightblood is not a returned himself. He never had a cognitive shadow attached to a metallic body. Nightblood is an awakened object. The amount of breaths coupled with the process of its creation is what gave it sapience. But Nightblood and the Heralds are two entirely different creatures.
The reason I do not discount it simply because an innocent will have to be used is (mistborn spoilers ) Kelsier seems to require hemalurgy to be connected to his body. Even if he didn’t use an “innocent” body, the very spikes used to staple him would have been the result of people being killed, or their “spirits” being horribly mutilated. So even among our “heroes”, potentially killing someone to accomplish goals is not off the table. I do not think we know enough about the Heralds inclinations to believe they are completely altruistic that they would not potentially sacrifice 10 people if it meant preserving humanity on the whole. They did ultimate sacrifice the one (Taln) to preserve themselves after all.
@42 Isilel
Like the Taco Bell commercial, why not both? I will have to dig more, I could have sworn there was a WoB that explained the degradation of the cognitive shadows over long enough times due to the infusion of investiture warping the “shape” of the “petrified wood” if you will over a long enough time. I have not located it yet, but will do my best.
I feel to assume the heralds were the “best of the best and greatest heroes of their time”, might be seeing the origin in rather rose tinted glasses. The way I personally see it, is they took all people of some stature or renown. So a king, a priest, an artist, a scholar, a judge, a doctor, a architect or smith, captain of the guards, a charity worker, and then some random guy who popped up. All people have flaws. We also do not know the situation that arose to cause them to make the oathpact. Maybe they saw no other way, vs extinction, so said ok we are going to die anyway. It could be everyone present at the King’s court. We do not know.
Being Honorable, just like all the other shards intents, and even the heralds themselves is very much up to interpretation. The heralds are 10 different versions/manifestations of honor that as we see can and has come into conflict with each other. The elsecaller’s, skybreaker’s, and dustbringer’s version of honor for instance we know would have no problem with doing so if it meant preserving the species and that is just 3 orders we are sure of. The heralds are not limited by oaths but by how they view the ideals they chose to uphold themselves. Honor the shard is only concerned with holding to bonds. Basically my point is just because it does not sound nice and doesn’t sound like something the “good guys” would do, does not preclude it from potentially being true. I understand however that the thought leaves a bad taste in some people’s mouths. I think that might be all the more reason that Brandon might be doing exactly that. To have us see that the heroes of legend aren’t quite as heroic as we were led to believe.
I have already responded to your thoughts on Jasnah’s return when you brought it up in the past, so I see no reason to repeat my thoughts. I respect your opinion
As to the assassination attempt. As we have seen with Jasnah, soulcasting takes a lot of stormlight to soulcast a human being. Objects are easier. So you are assuming she had enough stormlight in both her clothes and in her case to take out multiple assailants. Just three in the alley broke on of the gemstones, and used up all her stormlight. She has no idea how many individuals are there. She could have gotten out numbered. Better to play possum.
So the proficiency with the blade for Jasnah that I have seen come up in multiple places. Personally I just do not see it. It does not take great trained skill to swing a blade that is the size of a person, but light enough to use with one hand and can cut through anything through a group of human enemies. We see all through Way of Kings and Words of Radiance how effortless it is to kill people wholesale with shardblades. The only reason training is needed is when you go against another shardbearer, or if you are so incredibly overwhelmed by enemy numbers. Three people charged Jasnah. Three. She also coupled those swings with soulcasting which she is proficient in. So I personally do not see Jasnah needing massive military training to swing a sentient, invincible weapon that cannot be stopped. If Kaladin stepped up to duel her with his sprenblade and stormlight, and she bested him purely with fighting swords, then I would agree it was unrealistic.
Jasnah did get information from the highspren. But all that information is based on how things used to go. The everstorm is new. She realized and stated to Hoid how much of her information could be horribly out of date.
@43 Gepeto
Rosharans are healthier than most due to the higher level of investiture on their world from the highstorms. WoB confirm it. So I could see that leading to all sorts of effects, such as slightly longer life times for a people despite their stage of technology, people being in slightly better “shape” than they should be otherwise, and perhaps fewer wrinkles and grey hair.
Thing is Jasnah has shown to admit she is wrong on numerous occasions, apologize, and attempt to do better. I do not think she is as arrogant and self involved as you posit. At least that is how I read the character. I honestly think Jasnah was made Queen because she would keep the remnants of Alethkar united, and working together. That would enable Dalinar to focus on the world rather than keeping an eye on Elhokar and preventing him from making mistakes while he learned to be a better king. Jasnah is already there. He can trust her to do what is right for the Kingdom. That way the coalition can function as a united body that it needs to be to properly meet the threat of Odium. I think this is so the narrative can keep its focus to encompass the world conflict instead of national conflict.
@45 noblehunter
Well said. Jasnah is self aware, and she is ready and willing to reach out to those she feel are better suited for advice, but she does not tolerate foolishness.
@47 RogerPavelle
Ehhh, thing is Taravangian’s curse means when he is “smarter than everyone else” he lacks the opposite degree of empathy. Jasnah does not have that. Though I could see Jasnah being a contrast to Taravangian by showing how someone can be intelligent and empathic at the same time.
@49 Carl
There are three WoB on whether or not Lightweavers can transfer completely to the Cognitive realm that contradict each other. One says Shallan only peeks in, while the other says she could completely transition, while yet another implies all orders could transition fully into it. I personally think Lightweavers can only peek in, and that the terminology got a bit wonky with the answers during the WoBs, while Elsecallers and Willshapers can transport fully using the surge, but it seems the jury is still out. WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219-words-of-radiance-philadelphia-signing/#e7924
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117-boskone-54/#e1597
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10-calamity-chicago-signing/#e6574
I agree with everything you said on Jasnah’s personality and as queen.
#59, @Scáth: I didn’t mean that Nightblood is a Returned or was formerly human, just that Vasher and Shashara were doing something analogous to what Endowment does. Nightblood, by all accounts, is far more powerful than a Returned, actually.
He’s Stormbringer, after all. Sanderson knows his tributes, he wouldn’t make a Stormbringer-avatar weaker than gods.
Okay, so I completely disagree that Shallan Elsecalled when she Soulcast the goblet to blood. That was Transformation, and while she could see in and could “feel” Shadesmar to an unnerving extent, I don’t believe she was physically IN Shadesmar. Even if I’m completely wrong, and Shallan physically entered Shadesmar in both TWoK and WoR, it’s still not Elsecalling. At most, she entered and left from the same place; more likely, she was able to enter with her mind, and then her mind returned to her body when things got dodgy.
There is, as I understand it, much more to Elsecalling than merely entering the Cognitive realm. (I don’t think we’ve seen much of it to date – just glimpses of what Jasnah did, without very much explanation or any reference to what a fully trained Elsecaller could do.) The implication from epigraphs is that both Transformation (“soulcasting”) and Transportation (“motion and realmatic transition”) access the Cognitive realm more than other surges do, which is why Willshapers and Lightweavers have more ability to interact with that realm than other orders. (All orders have some connection, because of their spren, but not all are able to access it directly.) The reason the order is named Elsecallers is that, with both Transportation and Transformation, they have far more control of and access to the Cognitive, so they are able to enter, move, and leave more readily than anyone else.
When I have a little more time, I’ll go do a bit of research and report back.
@60 Carl
Ah gotcha. I guess it could be said it is analogous. Both involve infusing large amounts of investiture.
@61 Wetlandernw
By all means do your own research and I look forward to hearing what you find, but I am curious, what are your thoughts on the three contradictory WoBs I posted? Personally I agree and think lightweavers can only peek in, but there is still that one WoB where Sanderson says it is implied that they can enter physically. I think the confusion is just the merging of terms he uses, but I just don’t know.
@61 Wetlandernw
So, are you saying that “elsecalling” is more than the sum of its parts (transformation and transportation)?
Also, while I haven’t read the WoB, it seems to me that if you can interact with the cognitive realm, you are doing more than seeing into it. When Shallan transports herself there, she is able to interact with the “sea” in a “physical” sense – she almost drowns in the beads and is then able to solidify them to be able to walk to land. What other criteria do you think needs to be met to have this considered transportation?
scath, I don’t think the three WoBs are contradictory, other than that over time, he may have shifted his word choices a little. I think he states pretty clearly that when someone is Soulcasting, they don’t physically move over to the Cognitive realm, and that while Shallan will probably be able to learn to enter Shadesmar physically (i.e.without the twisty Oathgate thing from OB), she has not yet done so. Keep in mind, too, that there are multiple scenes they could be talking about, because not one of them specifies an event. All three of the WoBs you linked are from signings between the release of WoR and OB, so we don’t know what scenes either the questioner or Brandon had in mind. It could be the goblet scene in TWoK, or the Wind’s Pleasure in WoR, or The Stick in WoR.
Roger, I think that Shallan’s perception and her physical reality were two different things in the TWoK scene. Her mind went too far in and took her senses along, so that she could partially feel the beads and things, but she didn’t transition her whole body in. The same thing happens, IMO, in the Wind’s Pleasure and the Stick scenes. The way Brandon has described it, physical entry isn’t exactly an all-or-nothing affair; she was “partway in” but not fully in. Be that as it may, no, I do not think that Elsecalling is merely a matter of switching back and forth between realms. I think it involves near-instantaneous movement through realms, as well. I don’t believe a practiced Elsecaller would have to do the long trek from Kholinar to Thaylen City, for example. That seems like a nearly useless skill for an entire order of Radiants, merely to be able to switch realms but stay in the same location, and then have to get a ship or do some major hiking to get to another location and pop back out. IMO, full-up Elsecalling will eventually be revealed to involve transition not only between realms, but between locations. It will look much like using an Oathgate – except without the need for an Oathgate. The most Shallan will be able to do along that line is perhaps, someday, move between realms at will.
Are you saying that Elsecalling is different than the Transportation surge, then? What you are describing seems more like the surge than something unique to the Order.
@@@@@ 59, scath – I REALLY hope your theory about the Heralds is wrong. I don’t think it is flawed in any way, but it would definitely give me negative feelings toward Honor if it ended up being true. The scene when Demid was possessed by the Fused was one of the most revolting scenes in the book (in the sense that the idea of it turned my stomach, not in the sense of badly written). Seeing Team Honor use the same mechanism would be awful.
My next paragraph contains Mistborn/Secret History spoilers.
I felt like there was care to point out in Mistborn that hemalurgy was of Ruin, allomancy was of Preservation, and feruchemy was balanced (which later felt perfect when Sazed, our beloved feruchemist, became Harmony). I also felt like Kelsier was never presented as a true hero. He orchestrated and aided in the accomplishment of heroic deeds, but he also felt comfortable murdering nobles in cold blood and sought to be worshipped, and even his favorite pupil Vin gently chastised him for not understanding true love after her physical death. His embrace of hemalurgy thus felt consistent with his moral ambiguity. Filling in some gaps, I think he likely took advantage of Spook’s hero worship of him to encourage Spook to embrace hemalurgy (something Spook should have known firsthand was a bad idea). With all this in mind, I am hopeful that Odium and Honor will use different methods of reincarnating (for lack of a better word) their champions.
Alice, are you saying that (Fourth Oath or so) Jasnah can’t quite Elsecall correctly yet? She clearly spent a lot of time in Shadesmar and needed to travel in that plane in order to get to her unintentional rendezvous[1] with Hoid.
[1]No romance implied by that word, but it would be interesting, since both are ostensibly a-romantic superhuman supergenii obsessed with learning and capable of inter-planar travel ….
@67 We don’t know WHEN Jasnah got to the fourth oath. That might be a more recent development then that scene.
@64 Wetlandernw 63 and 65 RogerPavelle, and 67 Carl
So as I said I am in agreement with Wetlandernw. I think what Brandon was saying by “physically” got confused. I think when Shallan and Jasnah only soulcast (transformation), they peer into the cognitive realm. How this functions is investiture creates this little bubble that manifests as that person in the cognitive realm. So maybe this will help.
Person A is soulcasting. Person B is in the physical realm observing. Person C is in the cognitive realm observing. When Person A soulcasts, Person B sees Person A in the physical realm just standing there, touching the physical object they wish to soulcast. Person C in the Cognitive realm sees Person A seemingly pop in and hold the stone representing the physical object. Person A in the cognitive realm looks like how they look in the physical realm but are composed of investiture. Their actual body is still in the physical. Person A then transforms the object, and “leaves” the cognitive realm. Person B just sees them open their eyes in the physical, while Person C in the cognitive sees them pop away.
Now regarding transportation. Using the same example (Person A using transportation, Person B observing in physical, Person C observing in cognitive). So first we will go over transporting to the cognitive realm only.
Person A uses the transportation surge. Person B in the physical realm watching Person A completely vanish. Person C in the cognitive realm watches Person A suddenly appear and remain in the cognitive realm. Use of surge completed.
Next we will go over transporting to another location.
Person A uses the transportation surge. Person B in the physical realm watching Person A completely vanish. Person C in the cognitive realm sees nothing as (potentially as Brandon is still deciding) Person A goes directly to the Spiritual Realm which is all places and all times to travel. Person A then appears in front of Person D who is chilling in a chair on the opposite side of the planet in the physical realm.
That at least is how I understand the WoB and how it is shown in the books. When Brandon said physically, it threw me for a bit, but I agree with Wetlandernw, that it just is the terminology coupled with what happened with the oathgate that got a little wonky. I think what I believe is in agreement with what Wetlandernw also said, but if I misunderstood, then I apologize, and look forward to hearing more of Wetlandernw’s thoughts.
Now that I have covered my thoughts on whether or not a lightweaver could fully transport into the cognitive realm, on to cover elsecalling and Jasnah’s level in it. So to RogerPavelle and Carl. I believe that Willshapers can transport fully into the cognitive realm, or bypass it to teleport directly to another location through the spiritual realm. I think lightweavers can only peer into the cognitive realm. However since Elsecallers (the order), have both, they have a greater affinity and proficiency with the cognitive realm. Now this part I think was confirmed via WoB with Overlordjebus, so I will need to pull it up, but each order starts out being better with one surge, and then over time learns the second surge.
edit: here is the WoB. it seems it is more just for writing, but I still personally believe my thoughts regarding surge preference is true which I go into further detail below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8647
In just about every situation, except a few outliers, we see the radiant primarily use one surge first, and then the second one. So windrunners are adhesion, then gravitation. Skybreakers are gravitation and then division. Releasers are division and then abrasion. Edgedancers are abrasion and then regrowth, and so on. So Elsecallers are transformation first, and then transportation while willshapers would be transportation first, and then cohesion. This to me says that elsecallers are much better at soulcasting than lightweavers, but willshapers are much better at transportation than elsecallers. I see it playing out as elsecallers teleport to roughly the location they intended, while willshapers can teleport all over the battlefield and are much more precise. Lightweavers can soulcast by touching objects and “convincing” them to change, while elsecallers can soulcast at range, and “demand” they change.
@66 Evelina
I understand and respect how you feel.
I will point out regarding Mistborn, that none of the shards are inherently “good” or “evil”. Ruin is just as necessary and beneficial as Honor. The same thing with Odium. So I do not feel what the shard is should limit us in thinking what the shardholder is capable of. Even Preservation liked what the Lord Ruler did in keeping everything the same, which involved enslaving the skaa and holding back technological advancement. I whole heartily agree with you regarding Kelsier. He was never presented to the readers as a true hero. Which is why it is so interesting that a lot of the characters in Era 2 see him as heroic and wonderful. There is a whole lotta dark when it comes to Kelsier. Basically everything we the readers see and all the information we get about the Heralds in “present day”, is the same kind of information and same perspective as all the characters in Era 2 have regarding Kelsier. So if Kelsier, who we know is actually not quite altruistic, could be viewed in Era 2 as such a savior and good person, then why not the same of the Heralds?
Abut Keisler, Brandon said in any other time he would have been the Villain but there and then he was what the world needed. Does that make sense on how he is regarded as a hero in world.
@BenW, I wouldn’t be surprised if the structure of Radiant surgebinding is as you write. I continue to assert that it’s artificial and imposed by Honor and Cultivation to limit surgebinders, and that before swearing later oaths, a person could potentially go outside that structure, as (again) the narrative has Shallan actually transporting to the Cognitive Realm, but losing that ability when she tells later Truths.
@70 BenW
True he was what the world needed at the time, but that is not what was passed down. The truth of his actions were not passed on over the ages. His deeds were exaggerated, distorted, or are out right lies. So I am saying the same could be said about the Heralds as far as we know. We do not know what they were like prior to the oathpact. We do not know their thoughts when they agreed to it. We know how they were remembered, over the centuries when records were regularly destroyed due to Desolations. We know how the religions of the Roshar distorted facts, and invented information. One religion views Jezereh and the Stormfather as one and the same. Another one views Kalak as that. One worships only Jezereh, another worships all the heralds but not the Almighty, and yet another worships the Almighty with the Heralds held just under him. So my point is we enter Way of Kings with the same level of information and understanding that the in world people of Scadrial Era 2 have about the founders. Spook is another prime example that if I went into would be massive spoilers. Brandon has continually said what the Heralds do is being “reborn”, so I could be totally and completely wrong. Not saying I am absolutely right. But just because a function is distasteful does not mean it is not being used. Though as I said I respect and understand that some people would choose to think better of the Heralds and prefer the theory that does not include possessing people. Totally not saying my view is the only valid view.
@71 Carl
Were you responding to BenW or me? I understand and respect your view though I disagree with it. The scene when Shallan uses the Oathgate to escape Kholinar and ends up in the Cognitive Realm is the result of Sja-anat intervening on Shallan’s behalf to prevent their death. So that specific instance has nothing to do with Shallan’s powers. It is entirely and completely in regards to the Oathgate being altered by Sja-anat so instead of teleporting to Urithiru or outright dying, they ended up in the Cognitive Realm. Sja-anat says so herself. Now as to the other times she is interacting with the cognitive realm, as I said I view that as her forming an investiture version of herself in the Cognitive Realm to interact with it, but her physical body is still very much present in the Physical Realm. No actual body transition. So I personally do not see any canon breaking, or rule breaking by this function. But I understand how you can interpret things differently, and I wish you luck with your theory! :)
@72 I thought that Sazed/Harmony passed down EVERYTHING about Kelisier the good AND the bad
@71 That is an interesting thought
@73 BenW
Ok so warning to all big Mistborn Spoilers below
Sazed omitted hemalurgy so he did not pass down everything, as well as Era 2 holds High Imperial in such high esteem as latin in our world in ages pass, yet no one seems to know its origin being street slang. Hopefully this won’t be taken offensive but that is the equivalency of 300 years from now, government officials in a time honored tradition honoring the founding fathers speaking like so when swearing someone in to court “yo dog, do you be representing your utmost and honest words in this hizouse?” That’s why I said they were exaggerated, distorted, or out right lied over the years. The Lord Mistborn was viewed as so intelligent and a visionary, yet Marasi finds out Breeze wrote all his speeches for him. The Lord Mistborn was also known for his kindness and generosity, yet he was in agreement with Kelsier on hemalurgy enough to consider doing it to elderly people. Hemalurgy being the art that is confirmed to not only kill the target in most cases, but even if they survive, it horribly tears apart that person’s “soul”. So clearly regardless how precise Sazed may have written the Words of Founding, things got altered over the years to a more idealistic or “controlled” perspective of history.
Is there really confusion about Shallan physically traveling to Shadesmar? She doesn’t have access to the Transportation surge. And she could never go around it, as this is the limitation of the bond with the spren. In this case, a Cryptic is only capable of providing the surges of Illumination and Transformation. The only way to use other surges is to use one of the honorblades or, theoretically, bond another spren.
@74 Fair enough. I guess was a little confused. I knew Sazed left out Hemalurgy but beyond that It didn’t really tack on me much. I guess it’s figured it was like even if we had all of the details of what a historical figure was like (up to a point in time at least) our interpretations of them would still be shaded by time and historical bias. I figured that was what was happening they knew the truth about them but they allowed their judgement to be clouded by time. A sort of rose-tinted way of looking at the past if you catch my drift. NOT QUITE romanticized, but wanting to believe the best.I see what you are getting at now.
P.S.: As for the speeches. I figured that as a being a case of something that happened AFTER the founding.
EDIT: I guess this was a case of looking at the same items but seeing different things.
@many re: Surgebinding – It seems pretty clear (to me, anyway) that there was a time on Roshar as well as on Ashyn where Surgebinding was not limited to the Knights Radiant, though we don’t know exactly how it worked or what spren were able to form the bond. When the higher spren decided they wanted to emulate what Honor had given to the Heralds, though, it shifted toward a more structured form, and at some point Ishar constructed the current arrangement. After that, as I understand it, no higher spren associated with either Cultivation or Honor would participate in any bond that would grant Surgebinding outside the Knights Radiant structure. It ties in to what the Stormfather says about how spren and Shards are not able to break their oaths, unlike humans. Part of their intrinsic nature is a complete inability to do anything outside the agreement that they made.
Also, I’m with scath @72 in believing that the only time Shallan went fully, physically into Shadesmar was during the incident at the Kholinar Oathgate, and that was Sja-anat’s doing, not Shallan’s. The Unmade had already been forced to corrupt the Oathgate spren so that they wouldn’t transport the team to Urithiru; when Shallan activated the gate, Sja-anat did the best she could to not kill them, instead moving them into Shadesmar. While there, Shallan actually says
It’s pretty clear in context that she’s never physically traveled here before, though she’s seen it enough times to recognize it.
@77
Ashyn? Ishar?? Please explain names.
Roger – Sorry… Ashyn is the planet the humans came from when they came to Roshar. It’s in the same star system, so the magic is similar but not quite the same. It’s the closest planet to the sun in this system, with Roshar second and Braize, a.k.a. Damnation, third. (There are also ten gas giants in the system, but they don’t matter to the story much.) While the planet Ashyn is still there, it was badly damaged by unchecked use of Surgebinding, making most of the planet’s surface uninhabitable. IIRC, there are a few places on the surface where people can still live, but most of the population fled the surface when the big blow-up happened. Some of them created floating cities, which as far as we know are still inhabited, and others migrated to Roshar to become the ancestors of the humans who live there now.
Ishar is one of the Heralds, often called their leader, the one with the role of Priest, and patron of the Bondsmith order. (He’s also showed up in another role more recently, but that doesn’t matter here.) He was the one who realized the implications of what the spren were doing when they tried to emulate what Honor had done for the Heralds, and insisted on the current system of Ideals for the Knights Radiant. According to the WoR Chapter 42 epigraph,
I find it ironic that the one who is called leader of the Heralds and founder of the Oathpact, also the one who founded the Knights Radiant and bound the spren irrevocably to a set of precepts and laws, was in full support of the decision to abandon the Oathpact. He could craft a system whereby the spren couldn’t break the rules, but broke his own agreement with Honor and left the world unprotected save for Talenel’s will.
This is getting repetitive and likely won’t be resolved until probably the 2030s or so when Brandon gets around to ending this series, but just to clarify what I’m saying (since someone misunderstood): when I say that Shallan entered the Cognitive Realm, I am referring to the Way of Kings incident where she is drowning in the sea of beads, not the later corrupted Oathgate thing in Oathbringer. I get that Alice and some others disagree and that it can’t be settled here, I just feel obligated to be sure I’m understood.
@76 BenW
Basically. Not to get political and argue one way or the other, but I liken it to how Christopher Columbus is viewed in the United States. Frequently he is portrayed in schools as the adventurous explorer that dared to risk what no one else would. In many places it is completely glossed over, or only revealed later (if you dig into his history) about how horrendous the indigenous people were treated by his hand. We have the historical records showing this, yet for quite some time that part was written out of the school text books. Now add that Survivorism is a religion and Kelsier is their figure head. It would be rather damaging to the religion if he was revealed to have done things contrary to the stories. For instance how Demoux thought Kelsier had empowered him to fight the dissident in the ranks of the rebel army that kelsier was building. We know allomancy does not work that way. We know Kelsier wanted Demoux to kill that man and was pushing the blade to do so. Demoux was the one that held back. That is an instance of Kelsier being coldblooded, and ready to sacrifice a life of a skaa to prove a point. Yet the story that ends up being told is one of wonder, and how the Survivor strengthens us and guides us to continue on when all seems lost. So I could see how the same could potentially apply to the Heralds.
@80 Carl
I understand what you mean, and taking that specific situation into account I still disagree because of how I choose to interpret the 3 WoB I posted. Basically in the example I gave, the reason the soulcaster can interact with the cognitive realm as occurred in that scene, is because an “investiture” version of them appears there. That is why the WoB got confused. It is “astral projection” because the soulcaster’s body did not actually leave the physical realm, but it is not “astral projection” because since you are creating an investiture “you” there, you can physically interact and probably even speak and touch people who are fully in the cognitive realm. Hmm, perhaps if I call it an “investiture construct” would be more apt. So the Shallan that fell into the beads was the cognitive “investiture construct” of Shallan’s mind made manifest in the cognitive realm. The reason this is so dangerous is the age ole fantasy adage “if you die in a dream, you die in real life”. So if she suffocates or dies while operating her “investiture construct”, then her mind dies. If the body’s mind dies, so too does the body. So the “investiture construct” gives full sensory input, and manipulation but does not actually involve the physical body entering the cognitive realm. So I believe in that scene, it was Shallan’s “investiture construct” that fell through the beads and nearly got suffocated. But as you said unless someone asks a follow up question to Brandon, we will not know unless it comes up directly in the books. It was nice discussing it with you however :)
If I get a chance before I forget, I’ll see if I can get Brandon to clarify.
@82 Wetlandernw
Thanks Wetlandernw! :)
I’m hoping to talk to Mr. Sanderson at Worldcon, so if given a chance I will also try to ask.
@84 Carl
Thanks Carl! :)
@42, as much as it matters at this late date —
Brandon invented Hemalurgy, and wrote a borderline-psychopath hero figure who now has his own religion. In my own story, people hunt magical animals like “we” would elephants and rhinos to steal their magic parts for lightbulbs and lighters. (Also airships and other cool stuff.) The very point he could make later is how horrible this is, perhaps even weakening Roshar’s connection to the other Realms if enough spren were diverted from manifesting normally.